[BAH]

Hello Everyone,
I joined this forum for the sole purpose of pushing my idea for a 10 mph (as compared to the current 15 mph) Hill Topper motor. I have talked with Mike at CR and he was receptive to the idea. However, he was not sure of how much demand was out there. If you have any interest in this idea please contact CR and let them know. I personally would really like to have 3 of these for my family as we live in a very hilly area of Baltimore, MD. Below is an email I sent to Mike. It's long so here is the basic idea...The exact Hill Topper Kits now being sold with an optional motor re-geared to allow for a top speed around 10 mph giving an increase of maybe 30%+ torque on hills. It would be for those who use the motor only to climb hills and want maximum torque and efficiency. An average rider on a 10% hill might do 5 mph, with motor assist they could do @ 7 to 8 mph putting it right in the maximum torque / efficiency zone for this motor.Important to note that motor torque / efficiency begins to drop sharply at speeds below 80% of design. I am not an engineer and these numbers are my best guess from limited internet study. I encourage anyone with REAL engineering knowledge to correct my numbers or thinking. I feel CR's existing motor design was an excellent choice for the broad based market that wants a balance of speed on the flats and some hill climbing torque. This motor would be for those who want motor assistance only to climb the steeper hills, and by using their lower gears (slower speeds) to maximize the human power they would need less battery power to do so. It could be a perfect match of man and machine yielding maybe 20 to 30 miles of comfortable riding with a simple 10 amp SLA? Who knows?



Hi Mike,
You are a very wise business man to pay such close attention to your customers thoughts and to be so gracious in your answers.
Knowing that, I will persist with my inquiry because I believe there is a market for what I am proposing and it may be larger than you think. (Not to mention that I really want some these for myself and no other company is even close to providing what you have created.) I have done a lot of research on line and your combination of quality, simplicity of design, pricing, and customer care cannot be found anywhere else that I have found. You have exactly what I want....Almost.

Below is a list of some unique markets:

-People living in very hilly areas
-The local occasional bike rider
-Off Road bikers
-Baby Boomers (Older folks in general)
-People dwelling in crowded cities
-Heavy bike/rider combinations (250+ lb.)

What do they all have in common? A large portion of them do not want to or simply cannot go very fast due to physical or environmental conditions or both. They only hope to go easier. Now, I know you know all this, and that is why you have already created the perfectly balanced broad based market solution, The Hill Topper.

However, I know there is a large "sub market" within these markets. It's the people who must ride under these adverse conditions who would gladly trade some speed for more hill climbing torque. Introducing the Hill Topper HT (high torque). Mike, stay with me on this, I really want three of these for the family.

I am going to use myself as the first example: I live in Baltimore, MD, I'm 52, 165 lb., good health, strong legs. I have a 3 speed light weight cruiser that I can ride anywhere. What is my problem?
That I live in Baltimore (land of 15%+ hills) and, that I don't always want a full blown work out when I ride. I need no assistance on the flats or low slopes, only the high hills. As you know, approx. 70% of all round trips are flat or down hill in which I can go as fast as I want without assistance. I want maximum torque on the hills only. First gear on my three speed pushes 6-7 mph at around 60 ppm generating my best torque while your motor if geared for 10 mph would be closer to its optimum performance then the 15 mph motor. More help with less amps.

My wife is of average weight and condition and rides mostly with me when she rides. Same style bike. We have average street and sidewalk conditions but due to typical aging of the area speeds over 10 mph can become a little rough and unpredictable and make her uncomfortable. If she would choose to use assistance on the flats or low slopes it would be nice for her to be able to maintain an approx. 10 mph speed without having to continually toggle the motor. She would also like that at 10 mph she would be at maximum motor efficiency allowing for a longer ride as it is not how far we go but how long we can ride.

My son is 26, He is an off road biker and when riding trails, 10 mph is fast as you probably know. It is a continual bob and weave and jump and turn. 15+ mph is just not going to happen. What he needs is a kit that will give him good torque at low speeds (5-10 mph) for dogging steep hills.

My wife and I travel a lot in flat beach areas and I can tell you from first hand experience that the large majority of Boomers and vacationers I see riding bikes top out around 10 mph. After riding bikes for many years with a speedometer I just know what 10 mph looks like. These people do not need to get some where, they just want a leisurely cruise to nowhere. A system designed to cruise at 10 mph would give them easy speed control (no toggling) and maximum efficiency allowing for more riding time. Our own long, lazy Sunday rides with the grandkids on state bike trails never get over 10 mph. How I would love to simply hit the button on those modest inclines when pulling the kids in the bike cart on hot days.

I'm going to speculate that riding in crowded city traffic and on city side walks could be difficult at a steady 15+ mph for many people. And they would love to have some extra low end torque for quick starts and maneuvering in heavy traffic.

Lastly would be the bike/rider combinations at 250+ pounds. If I were in this category I know for a fact that I would sacrifice some speed for absolute maximum torque on hills not to mention that higher speeds would be a concern with only about 3 square inches of rubber on the road to stop with.

Although I have a life time of house power and HVAC experience it seams to be of no value at all for building bike motors so please bear with me. If you change only the gearing on you're existing motor from 15 mph to 10 mph (on a 26" wheel in your controlled environment) would that not give approx. a 30% increase in torque and allow the motor to operate more efficiently more of the time due to the lower speed requirement?

As you mentioned before, in a perfect world we would all be able to select our own torque/speed ratio motor, mine might be around 6-8 mph for hill climbing, my wife 10 for moderate cruising, my son 5 for trail climbing, but in trying to use your same broad based approach I think 10 mph might be a good balance of speed to torque for a second motor option. I realize that in your controlled environment, the milage with the SLA might be a little less but remember, many of these people only want length of riding time, not distance.

Remember, we are talking about a "sub market" who do not care about speed or getting help on the flats, they only want to climb as many of the highest hills possible as efficiently as possible at minimum cost and battery weight. I believe you will have the perfect solution by adding this one motor option.

Mike, if you decide to research this I am sure your team will develop the best motor design with the widest appeal. I was being as specific as possible only to best illustrate the genuine need for this motor option. I have attached a document containing excerpts from your Blog and Forum pages. They are direct copies that have not been altered in any way except for bolding key words. Your costumers are crying out to you Mike, I can see them in marching on Washington shouting..."WE WANT TORQUE, WE WANT TORQUE". Why not give them what they want and increase your bottom line? A really happy customer is your best guarantee for success.

I propose that you put this question to your Forum or Blog and get some user feedback on what would be the best speed for them and get their thoughts in general on a motor option. All your competition have a variety of motor wattages but they requires battery packs to match. And in general they are too expensive, complicated and powerful for this market. You have perfectly addressed this unique market and the addition of a higher torque motor option can only broaden your buyer base. I assume that this motor will work with all of you're existing kits and require no modifications or additional equipment. It is basically your original motor under less stress.

Please forgive my long winded email. I know you have more important things to be doing than reading this unending sales pitch but, as another blogger said, these kits can actually change lives. More exercise, more family time, reliable transportation when a car is not an option. Our lives are in your hands.

Be sure to read the attachment at the top of this page containing excerpts from your Blog and Forum.

Thank you for your time Mike.

Sincerely,
Gregg Perreault

[Alan]

I'm actually in two of your use cases (my need is to climb that "last hill" to get back to my house after a long ride, and I'm a Clydesdale [6'5", 215 lb]), and yes, I'd be interested in this setup. Certainly, offering the higher-torque gearing as an option could only help overall sales. The only drawback that I can see to a higher-torque offering is that it might be less suitable for aluminum/carbon fiber forks.

I'm also very interested in the upcoming "lightweight" setup...the 2.2 lb battery and 5.2 lb. motor. I only need the assist for about 1-2 miles of every ride, so the extra weight of current setup on the other 20-30 miles of my ride would be a detriment. Mike, any ETA? I'm ready plop down my $$$...

[Bluesman]

I am 61 and live in the Foot hills of the Smokey Mountains. We have nothing but hills. I would be glad to have less top speed but more torque on hills.

[Michael]

I have a standard hill topper but would love to get another one with a higher torque, slower speed motor. I ride a lot of steep hills on the street, and also do a lot of mountain biking on narrow trails, and would gladly trade off some top speed for more torque and battery efficiency below 10 miles per hour.

Would it be possible to achieve this by purchasing a pro pack designed for a smaller wheel, and then building it with a larger wheel? Or would that do the exact opposite of what we're looking for here?

Either way, the ideal would be for CR to offer a complete hill topper set up for higher torque and slower speeds. Mike and Chris, Is that something you guys are considering?

[webfairy]

I'm an old lady and I don't think I've ever ridden my bike more than 10 miles an hour!
My one concern buying a Hilltopper is it might be jerky and go too fast.
I'm riding in New York City traffic. I'm 60 years old and had my hip replaced twice. My bike is like my wheelchair. I can bike a lot better than I can walk!
Anyway, a hilltopper with 10 mph top speed and oomph on hills would be a great choice for me, if it were available.

[Elrollo]

I would buy another Hill Topper in a millisecond with peak efficiency and torque at 10 mph. I'm a senior-senior who weighs in at about 215. I live atop a steep hill and and long to again bike the hills of Vermont. Granted, that I would no longer be biking if it weren't for the Hill Topper I have, but since my average speed on a 30-mile ride is about 10 mph, I would opt for more torque and less speed from the unit. My two cents.

[davtrev]

So far out of two people I know that have used these both would prefer 10mph. With or with out the extra torque for the hills.

[ConnieD]

I am interested in torque, not top speed.

My property is on the shoulder of a ridge, up an unimproved "track".

I would like the "assist" to get up to my property, at low speed for safety.

I do not want to use a motorcycle because it is so stinky and noisy. In addition, it is easier to get hurt.

I would consider a "soft-tail" "mountain bike" with front suspension, however it would have to be small because it is important to be able to put my feet down.

I have a 20" folding bicycle.

Is the 350W electric motor really sufficient?

I could use Trails Topo! to determine how steep.

Is there a calculation for this?

[mushroom]

Please add me to your "lower speed/more torque" list. I live in WV, where the only level ground is where my home is built, and that had to be bulldozed. I am pushing 80 years young, but while my brain is only 50, my legs have kept up with my chronological age. I just got my Hill Topper installed, (ON A 20", 3 SPEED TRIKE) and it will not take me up the two short hills (road hills), on my 2 mile "exercise route", even in Low Gear of a 3 speed. I got about 2/3 of the way up the first hill when my 20" TRIKE "stalled". INCIDENTLY, if anyone didn't know it, a coaster brake does not work when you are going backwards, so make sure your hand brakes are working.

QUESTIONS:
1. Does a 10% grade mean that the road rises 1 foot for every 10 feet of horizontal travel?
2. Would going to 36 volts give me more hill-climbing ability? Warranty be damned, I just want to keep my Hill
Topper (it's a great idea), but if it won't get me up my "two hills", it is of no use to me, as "stalling" half way up
a hill and starting BACKWARDS DOWN the hill is not a pleasant experience. (Read "scary")
3. Does a 20" wheel give me more or less speed AND/OR torque than a 24" or 26" wheel? I know a 20" wheel must
go more revolutions to cover a mile, but -----?????

[jjtaco463rd]

Excellent idea about having higher torque but a lower speed.I watched the dick vs jane riding videos on how to best use this kit.Initially I was lazy and rode on level streets with power (yeah it was fun for a while) but I appreciate pedaling more for exercise (and to lose weight getting to a destination) and using the Hill topper kit mostly for help up hills since I am an out of shape mid 50's in age 240+ pound rider carrying a lit bit of cargo too about 25 more pounds on average.I'd rather have 3 times the torque at 5 mph up hills than 15 mph top speeds with different planetary gearing.You suggested a 10 mph top speed.Well that would be a good improvement too.It would be interesting if the hub motor could have variable internal gearing but that would probably be too complicated or costly.I have been checking other e bike kits (mid drive rather than hub motors) that use the bikes chain and gearing to achieve variable torques/speeds like the cyclone kits or the stokemonkey (not available right now) or ecospeed.Indeed I too would prefer much higher torques but lower speeds on Clean Republics HT kit for getting up hills.Maybe it has to do with a material strength issue or something like that that wouldn't make it possible.
One advantage with hub motors is that one has an extra form of propulsion whereas in the case of chain motor driven kits if the chain or freewheel pawl breaks (I had this happen to me a week ago while pedaling) the hub motor will at least enable travel on somewhat level streets.
I have less issue with pedaling on level roads but need more assistance on hills.This HT kit makes it possible for me to get up hills (for my heavy weight) but it could be better even at 250 watts (close to !/3 horsepower).
This kit (HT) was chosen by me well because I didn't have much money (it's an inexpensive kit) and was very easy to install whereas some of the other kits have more complicated installations ( better to have something that works and is easy than having a unused complicated kit lying about).Having more torque would make this kit stand out and more attractive to other available e bike kits.Sacrifice higher speeds I agree.Hey this kit is meant to help getting up hills so I agree with more torque in my opinion