[kuzumoto]

Perhaps this could be said to boil down to the "11-mm Question" as depicted in this picture:

DiscBrakeSpokeHit-medium.jpg (94.61 KiB) Viewed 4198 times

Here's a link to a bigger version of the picture: http://cleanrepublic.com/images/DiscBrakeSpokeHit.jpg
____________________________
Or, if you lace your wheel this way, you get more space, giving you, say, a "15-mm Question."

In-In Hub Spokes.jpg (29.07 KiB) Viewed 4119 times

____________________________

Hey All,

Yes indeed, we are now offering motors that are compatible with standard 6-bolt disc rotors. The motors come with their own bolts and a plastic spacing gasket included.

DiscBrakeHardware.jpg (28.18 KiB) Viewed 4752 times

Simply choose the disc brake option on the drop-down menu on the product page when ordering. During installation, just remove your disc rotor from your regular front wheel and bolt in onto your new motor hub.

Most disc brake calipers are highly standardized and you should be able to use your own caliper adjustment settings to finely tune the fit on your rotor once you have bolted it onto your hub motor.

If you're shopping/researching and worried that you have some type of exotic, non-standard clearance issue with your particular disc brake caliper system (note this is highly unusual) please know that we have excellent customer service and if your hub motor cannot be made to fit your disc brake system correctly for some reason, then you can always return the motor with our money-back guarantee, or of course just use regular (v/ rubber brake pad/ rim brakes).

We're looking forward to getting you riding electric!

Cheers,

Mike
_____________________________________________
UPDATE

Hi All,

Yeowza! Lively discussion on disc brakes. Our support staff told me this discussion was getting heated while I was off staring at QuickBooks and getting everybody health insurance (yes, we do that here) and not visiting the forum enough...

So I read through this thread, went and grabbed a disc brake bike at the local mega store, and posted the below pictures to aid communication.

In my experience, the key issues to getting correct rotor clearances are:

Adjusting space between planes A and B, and
Adjusting space between planes C and D.

Yes, damnit, but HOW?!

Try installing the plastic gasket (Item B) that comes with the disc brake motors between planes A and B. To adjust the distance between planes A and B you could add a thin layer of some material like putting small washers on the rotor bolts on the motor side of the gasket, or try making the gasket thinner somehow.

Try adding an extra washer (Item C), washer with a pie slice cut out of it, or some other flat material on the inside of the thick tab washer to increase the distance between planes C and D, or removing a washer or material to decrease this distance.

You'll probably want to adjust both distances to some degree. One general strategy might be to increase the distance between planes C and D as absolutely far as the window of your caliper/brake/pad settings will allow, then, if you're still having any kind of 'spoke hitting my caliper housing' problem, try increasing the distance between planes A and B until the spokes can clear the housing as they spin.

DiscHubFit-medium.jpg (68.66 KiB) Viewed 4263 times

OldDiscHub-Medium.jpg (201.37 KiB) Viewed 4263 times

MotorDiagram.JPG (31.05 KiB) Viewed 4264 times

Here are the big versions of these pictures in all their browser-flooding glory:
Hub motor spacing on fork: http://cleanrepublic.com/images/DiscHubFit-Large.jpg
Original disc hub: http://cleanrepublic.com/images/OldDiscHub.jpg

Some notes on this particular situation:

-The bike pictured is a 26" NEXT-Mountain Ridge bike:
http://reviews.walmart.com/1336/1008839 ... eviews.htm
-The rotor measures 160mm across from outside edge to outside edge.
-I put an extra washer (Item C) inside of the thick 'tab washer' to widen the space between planes C and D.
-Note Items A are the same bolts that I took right off my original rotor hub.
-Note how Item B is helping to stand the wheel far enough off from the caliper housing that the outside-bending spokes turn past without hitting the housing.

Thank you all for helping create a great interactive community here with all your discussion. It's really great to see all the passion about this type of product. On that note, I'll respond to some of the key issues you guys have raised.

Real passion for the products. Are the customers "defending" Clean Republic and speaking passionately about supporting this type of product just Clean Republic team members posing as "ghost" customers for PR purposes? This was really awesome to read. It shows what a heated cord we've struck by working to offer such badly-wanted practical products like this in this niche. No, we've never even met "Alex" or "Frank" and these others. I'd guess they are being so vocal and supportive of the Clean Republic philosophy because they feel as strongly as we do that America's been coasting for too long in terms of alternative energy innovation, we're starting to get our asses kicked by other countries in that sector, and someone should start doing something about it. Anyway, that was a great side note to see.

Misleading customer service. We have "Money Back Guarantee" plastered all over the website for a reason. We don't want you to get stuck with a product that doesn't work for you just so we can make a buck. Our mission is a lot bigger than profit. We're trying to help people who want to change their behavior and consume less energy (generating "negawatts" of un-consumed energy). We had a lot of people asking us to launch a disc brake variation of our hub motors for a long time, and as of the time of this posting the launch is only a few months ago, so thanks for working with us during the 'early adopter' phase as we work out solutions to specific issues.

Which disc brake systems are compatible with the Hill Topper hub motors? That's a good question, and it's caused me to amend the forum name a bit. It's certainly true that there will be some disc brake spacing situations where the motor just wont fit, however, there are hundreds of millions of bikes sold around the world and they all have standardized points, and other unique points in their systems. We can't test all these permutations and generate a list of ones that work. We can, however, stand behind our products and service and work with any customer that needs assistance with their specific situation.

Infuriated Geek Posting. Everyone's posts in this thread remain purely unedited by any "moderators." Yes, let's keep it that way. I thought about editing some in the above rants about people without wheel building experience having the audacity to buy a ProPack and tinker around, but in the end I believe the underlying point most people are trying to make is about safety, which is always the right place to be coming from. Still, yes, the implied maturity level of some forum posters sometimes drops disturbingly low.

For some reason this seems to escalate the more technical the discussion gets. If you do have extensive technical experience, then realize most people have less than you, and don't be surprised or angered by that. Just share your understanding with the rest of the members. That's the whole reason Clean Republic has set up this forum in the first place. We recognize we will never be able to be experts in every last area, so we want to draw on the collective experience of our whole community because ultimately the whole project is about what kind of alternative energy product the community members (customers) want. We're not trying to reinvent the bike shop. If you have an extremely specific, detailed question about the bike industry we freely admit your local bike shop manager will probably have a better answer, especially if it's got to do with historical or non-ebike technical questions.

Most of the Clean Republic team members aren't "cyclists." We're alternative energy product developers. The specific production process of lacing and tuning our wheels is done by our bike tech employees who do indeed have many years of experience. We are also proud to work with the same leading U.S. bike parts suppliers that serve your local bike shop. So, we are experts in the key bike industry areas that concern safety and e-bike systems, but in other respects we're all just "regular mechanic dudes." I, for example, happily do all my local errands on a 3-speed white-wall beach cruiser with a coaster brake that has a Lithium Hill Topper installed. I am usually biking to Kinkos or the bank wearing Carharts as I don't own a single piece of Spandex. It wasn't even until two weeks ago that I had even heard anyone say it was a good idea to put chamois butter on your balls just to go on a bike ride. ( "That's just, like, your opinion, Man." -Lebowski ). So, please hold the line, and don't fall into the trap. If you find yourself in the middle of composing an Infuriated Geek Post, step away from the computer, go on a bike ride (butter and all if the wheel lacing pattern debates have really got you hot and bothered), proof read, edit for civility and hit "submit."

BLOpinion.jpg (100.1 KiB) Viewed 4265 times

Cheers,

-Mike


_____________
Hi Mike,
many pepole ask me wether they can install the kits with a disk brake on them. I assume the six holes are intented for it but I don´t know for sure.
Cheers
Sebastian

[Mike]

Hello,

Yes, great question. Our motors are indeed disc brake compatible. The motors have the holes and hardware needed to install the disc from your bike onto the motor. We will soon begin marketing this as a competitive feature of our kits.

Until now we've been working on a few other marketing tasks and simply have not had time to announce, describe, and display the disc brake option on the motors, though all motors we do sell have this capability right now.

More details to come, and thanks for asking,

Mike

[bikeforce]

I just had my MTB converted to an e-MTB but I needed to change my front wheel disc brakes to rim brakes. This is because the current version of the Hill Topper hub motor is too thick to allow a disc brake caliper to fit without being hit by the spokes. This is the case even though the hub has 6 holes for attaching a rotor.

Changing my front wheel disc brakes is fine with me but perhaps it would be a great option to have another kit that is slimmer than the current one. Say, a Hill Topper slim line disc edition of the future.

Just a suggestion for future models.

I blogged about my experience with getting my kit. If anyone is interested please visit http://esykkelnorge.blogspot.com/.

Thanks to Mike and all the people at Clean Republic! Great product! Great service!

[Mike]

Hey Bikeforce,

Great suggestion. We're looking around for slimmer motor options, and I'll pass on this good feedback to the team. Also, nice blog write-up! I encourage people to take a look at his blog link above, really nice.

Here's the link to the giant pic of the install from the blog (sorry if it spills out of your screen) :
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_rYwFzdgPXKU/TAtRTilxrII/AAAAAAAAAA0/HMKOf7LuE9w/s1600/coverted_to_ebike01.jpg

Cheers,

Mike

[bikeforce]

Thanks, Mike!

I will definitely look forward to the future slim Hill Topper. I'm sure it will attract people who prefer to use disc brakes on their e-bike. In my case, I have been accustomed to using disc brakes because it is quiet. I use resin pads. Now that I had to change my front disc brake to rim brakes to take in my Hill Topper, I must get used to hearing the pads scream a bit upon contact with the rim, especially when braking downhill. But I guess the trade off with having a cost effective motor assistance from the current version when going uphill is worth it.

Can't wait to see the future Slimline Hill Topper Disc version.

By the way, I have another idea. Why not develop a disc brake system customized for the current Hill Topper? I mean, it already has the six holes for the rotor attachment and I was able to attach one to it but was not able to install a caliper. If the Clean Republic R&D team could develop a caliper thin enough to fit the Hill Topper without hitting the spokes, that one could sell too. I for one would buy such caliper for my Hill Topper if such exists. The rotor has to be 203mm, I think, to avoid heating up the motor. Thus, the caliper should be suited for rotor with that size. A big disc brake rotor would be great for going downhill with a Hill Topper after going uphill. Downhill bikers use big rotors.

The basic design of the caliper should be one that minimizes protruding into the spokes, so, it should be less than 10mm on the side of the pad that sits toward the spokes.

Best wishes to the team,

Bikeforce

[Mike]

Hey bikeforce,

Ok, I see what you mean. Usually people with disc brakes don't report spacing issues with their caliper hitting their spokes, but it is a little closer to the spokes as a result of the wider spoke width, I know what you mean.

We'll keep workin on all these options!

Mike

[martin75gk]

Just out of curiosity, would it be a problem to remove the hex screws that are needed for the disc brake? The heads of those screws get pretty close to my fork...

[mknzsu]

How can the hill-topper be used with disc brakes?

[martin75gk]

Nevermind... I did it myself. There wasn't a problem.

[djpetey]

i've already converted my 160mm rotor to a 203mm. all that's left is to re-build the wheel from the inside of the hub on the brake side. follow my progress as i work on getting the hilltopper to work with my disc brake system:

hilltopper-disc-brake-issues-and-trouble-shooting-t200.html

[Mike]

Ok, great to hear!

[totcycle]

I'm having the same trouble as djpetey. Lithium pro-pack onto MADSEN cargo bike with a generic promax disc brake, 160mm rotor. Laced up just like the photo (as the supplied spoke lengths would pretty much require, IMO). No way the spokes or even hub will clear my current calipers. Tried an Avid BB7 with bigger rotor too, no go.

I'm not even sure slimmer (hydraulic?) calipers will do the trick. There's a generous amount of attitude over on the FAQ about amateurs not knowing what they're doing when it comes to the wheel build-up, but the fanciest build in the world won't give me the clearance I need. And if the wheelsets were mean to be built with fancy radial, offset patterns, why don't the website photos or instructions reflect that? Are you shipping them that way?

Arghh. Happy to hear from anyone out there who has successfully installed the disc brake option, or if a cost-effective slim caliper (probably also need larger rotor) has been found. On the forums so far it seems to be 0 for 3 on disc brakes (me, djpetey, and the other guy who had to use his rim brake. i don't have that option on this bike).

For the Clean Republic folks ... any timetable on the narrow hub? I think that's what's it's going to take to get these working for people with disc brakes.

[chuck]

Hi totcycle,
From what you wrote, it seems the motor/hub *alone* (no spokes or rim) installed into the dropouts won't clear for your particular setup -- correct?

Mike, I think it might be helpful for us to:
1) Provide motor-hub dimensions of hub diameter, along with hub width at the spoke holes - this would allow folks to measure and determine if hub/spoke caliper collision is likely.
2) Kick off a list of configurations in FAQ known to work. Here's one fictitious example list entry:

Brake model Wheel Results
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Avid-BB7-mtn | 26" | YES, but only using 203mm rotor

Thanks,
Chuck

[frank]

your HT motor and disc brake set-up questions have already been answered by Carl in detail..read it all up in his own Carl's Custom e-Bikes forum here..under the topic 'will the HT fit your forks' using his business card method the reason why you guys are having all these problems is because you dont bother to read anything.. before shot-gunning all your questions..that have already been answered a thousand times..

[totcycle]

Thanks Chuck. The hub fits the fork just fine, with the disc brake removed. And runs nicely, I might add. But I've had to order a Hayes MX4 mechanical disc, even though it's a crap brake, and hard to adjust. We'll see if that fits, with the larger rotor.

Not sure what I wrote gave the impression that I needed to use a business card to measure my fork. And frank, yours is a fine example of the attitude over on Carl's post that I was referring to. No thanks. Do you have a functional disc brake setup without expensive mods to share with us? If not, why are you "shot-gunning" such a useless reply?

So Carl runs radial offset pattern wheels all the time on his 1,000 watt chopper setups, and thinks that's a safe way to build a wheelset. That's just super for him. And shares a story about some yahoo that broke teeth while riding a wheelset *that was missing spokes*. I read that too.

But that's not helpful for me. Or for the Clean Republic crew, who needs to hear that their disc brake solution isn't working for at least 3 of us, despite telling me before I ordered that they hadn't heard of any problems.

[chuck]

Totcycle,
Right on - thanks much! I too just want to harvest helpful info here, to avoid wasting time & money trying various brake/rotor combinations. You've already contributed two good datapoints - Promax w/ 160mm, and Avid BB7 w/ "bigger rotor" (203mm???), with Hayes MX4 on the way.

FYI, I haven't ordered an HT yet -- I'm VERY interested but holding off to get more data toward a reasonable solution first. I've currently got Avid BB7-mtn/26" wheel/160mm rotor, and from your post I get the impression fitting a 203mm rotor won't help...

I'm not inclined to buy and downgrade to a front V-brake, and can't justify multiple brake/rotor experiments. It seems contradictory to suffer through that, for what's intended to be the "Easy DIY 3-minute Fastest Electric Bike Conversion"...

Re: Frank, I think perhaps he just saw "dropouts won't clear" and "motor/hub" both contained somewhere in my first sentence, and didn't bother reading anything else (hey, that's what he accused us of doing! , including it seems the name of this topic. Since he apparently didn't understand that measuring hub diameter and measuring hub width at spoke holes were to help determine HT hub interference with brake caliper, he treated us to an irrelevant/condescending rant about Carl's biz card substitution for metric calipers for measurement of dropout spacing. Not exactly the response I'd hoped for in my very first posting here -- disappointing

Even though the topic name "Carl's Custom e-Bikes" gives me the impression (quite ironically) that it relates to specialized/fringe exploits using the Pro-Pack instead of FAQ for the mainstream, I'd actually read completely through that before posting here. The only thing over there relevant to disc brake vs. HT is two polite postings by jnreyno asking for some help with this caliper-hub collision problem. The only replies to him were from Carl, Frank, and Alex providing zero help with that, only anti-ProPack messaging instead.

I still think the CR folks should collect and post info here on known working brake/rotor combinations. Good luck with the Hayes MX4 -- hope that works...
Chuck

[jim]

As an automotive technician for a high-end luxury car distributor I know more about mechanical engineering than most Pro-Packers here and yours and other P-P posts are what gives the Clean Republic forum a bad name. First off I actually met Carl in person at a recent Green Car Expo in California where I saw GM and Nissan EVs and e-bikes and his e-bikes were by far the most advanced in their design and operation (with disc brakes!) at the show. His vast knowledge and experience is truly awesome.

So thank your lucky stars that we have somebody of Carl's caliber with his expansive engineering knowledge to advise all of us in his forum. As for your posts they are very juvenile in that nowhere did I read of any of the statements from Frank or Alex or anyone else let alone Carl as implied; ie. Carl never said to use the business card in lieu of a caliper to measure anything - only an idiot would think that. The idea was to 'approximately eyeball' the fit of the HT motor into a bike's forks - BEFORE ordering the kit - to AVOID having any fit problems. Carl also advised to use accurate mm calipers to measure the wheel clearance and off-set when lacing up the wheel in your Pro-Pack - he never said to use a business card for this and doing wheel builds - anywhere.

Also Carl never 'built' his '1000W chopper wheel with radial offset'(?)-it came already laced from the e-kit OEM. In fact Carl never builds his own wheels - preferring to relegate this tedious task to a wheel-pro for safety reasons. The jnr guy with his disc brake problems was helped considerably by Carl but despite his help the guy was just not getting it - ie. he was not mechanically inclined enough to absorb any of the intricate offset details that Carl was giving him. This prompted Carl to no longer offer any help for the 'Pro-Pack-Problem-People'. In fact your very own negative experience with the Pro-Pack is aptly summarized by your own statement; "It seems contradictory to suffer through that, for what's intended to be the 'Easy DIY 3-minute Fastest Electric Bike Conversion". FYI the 3-min conversion refers to complete kits - NOT the Pro-Pack! The P-P takes more than a few days IF you know what you're doing. You '3-minute' non-pros and non-mechanics should just simply get the complete kit - get it?

[sam]

Jim - on behalf of Frank, Alex, myself, and others I truly want to thank you for your insightful response to all those Pro-Pack wheel builders out there. You are a qualified mechanic and that's why you can obviously see the dangers first hand. I also truly thank Carl at his Custom e-Bikes forum for his excellent engineering expertise.

Millions of fatalities are caused by careless people who don't use caution. And because of their knuckleheads, don't want to be told of any dangers they get themselves into. The same kind that refuse to ask for directions because they may look stupid. Far better to follow expert advice and look stupid than to ignore it and prove it.

The basic bicycle is a tinkerers delight but it also invites a type of manic-compulsive-tinkerer who has absolutely no idea what they are doing other than that they are acting on their impulse without any regard for its outcome or their safety. The bicycle by its very nature is forgiving when its being overused so you have plenty of warning to stop it. Adding an e-motor to a bike - even a low powered HillTopper - changes its whole dynamics. If you are not careful about what you are doing with the wheel - you' WILL be looking at missing teeth in the very near future. Of course you can avoid all those self inflicted problems by getting the complete kit in the first place.

[jnreyno]

I'd like to offer my opinion on the matter, after trying my damndest to fit disc brakes with the Hilltopper.

As far as I can see, the hilltopper can be used with disc brakes, but only if a rotor of 205mm is used, along with a suitably thin caliper, which looks ugly.
Trying a 160mm rotor results in the caliper hitting the motor (but maybe, just maybe there's an ultra-thin caliper out there that won't).

From what I can see, Hilltopper haven't gotten out their measuring tapes here at all, If you ask them they'll say disc brakes are compatible with the motor. From what I can see, they just know that you can physically bolt a disc brake rotor to the motor. There are clearance issues they seem to be blind to.

If you are buying a Hilltopper to fit disc brakes, beware, In all likelyhood you'll end up needing to use rim brakes.

To Hiltopper: I Challenge you to show me a photo of a disc brake set up with the Hilltopper motor with a rotor of 160mm, which is what I've been trying to set up from day one, trusting Hilltopper's assertion that there was disc brake compatibility. As a customer giving you some friendly advice, I would urge you to look into this issue with some degree of seriousness, rather than just directing people over to waste more of Carl's time on the matter.

Directing people that the Hilltopper is compatible with Disc brakes is misleading...YOU NEED TO TELL PEOPLE THE DISC BRAKE SETUPS IT IS COMPATIBLE WITH, I wasted a lot of time learning this the hard way, and ended up going for V-brakes,(one new fork later). This issue is probably causing a lot of people a lot of unwanted headache!

There, that's my rant! Hope it helps someone else, and hope Hilltopper get their act together on this issue.

[alex]

jnr - Your point would be well taken but for the following: Clean Republic clearly states the following on their site; "PRO-PACK - LACE IN YOUR OWN SPOKES - FOR BIKE SHOPS & SKILLED MECHANICS". As Carl also pointed out if you are neither of those then STAY AWAY FROM THE PRO PACK!! Its getting tedious to be constantly repeating this warning by both Mike and Carl only to have the inept PPs get into the deep muck of their own making. If you are getting an e-bike kit and your mechanical knowledge or skills leave a lot to be desired - as is the case here - then simply get the complete kit.

Your point about this somehow being a CR problem by not making a list of bikes not compatible with the HT kit is moot due to the above requirement that you be a qualified bike shop or skilled mechanic to do it on your own.
In other words you already know that if you ignore the requirements and advice - then you are ON YOUR OWN!! Blaming Clean republic for all your disc brakes not fitting and having to buy a new set of forks and the different brakes to go with it is all your own doing isn't it? Also Carl offered to make your disc brake fit into your forks as he explained but you decided not to. Why do you then complain? BTW Carl fitted a HT with 160mm disc brake on his Strida folding bike - so there is no problem fitting disc brakes less than 205mm - you just have to know how.

[jnreyno]

What's what I wrote got anything to do with the pro-pack? Maybe I'm wrong here but I'm presuming CR sells prebuilt wheels with disc brake mounts? As it happens, I did buy a pro-pack, so what? It's for skilled mechanics, so I passed it on to a skilled bike mechanic to work on it, get off my back!

All I'm saying is that people may be looking to buy the Hilltopper and use it with their disc brakes, and it seems as if it's not straightforward to do by any means, and likely doomed to failure, unless they do some very fancy stuff with their wheel lacing and/or can put up with big rotors.

People buying the hilltopper with the expectation that they might be able to use the disc brakes they have (remember, people buy this thing to slot into their forks!) need to know it's difficult to do, and only certain configurations will work. I did what I could to ensure that I'd be able to use disc brakes prior to buying the hilltopper, ultimately, it seems to be the domain of the experienced mechanic (my skilled mechanic couldn't do it without 205mm rotors (my forks wont take them)!). It would have been nice if someone had told me this at the outset. This applies to buyers of the full wheel as well as the PP (if my assumtion that the pre built wheel has disc brake mounts too), so don't give me the 'told-you-so-you-PP-buying-moron' line.

From my point of view, as a customer, I feel as if I've been misled (maybe I haven't, but others may feel the same, and there's an old saying about the customer being right). As a customer, you see that the motor has disc brake mounts, so you think 'good, that will slot into my bike, I'll just transfer my rotor from my old wheel onto the motor and hey presto, everything will be fine'- Buyers beware: Thats very unlikely to happen! . I'm sharing my experience so others won't fall into the same trap.

Thats all.

[totcycle]

Yikes! What sort of internet rock have I turned over?

People, let me make this crystal clear:
If I want advice from Carl (with whom I have no issue) or his troll-tastic sycophants who seem to know a lot about Carl but precious little about disc brake compatibility, I would be posting on the Carls' Ebike FAQ. Please keep your personality disorders stowed for the remainder of this thread.

What I'm interested in doing here is sharing my experiences with the current HT disc brake mount, and solicit feedback from actual users of said disc brake, and the Clean Republic support crew.

As for bona fides, I may not work at a luxury car dealership, but I am an everyday cyclist, who writes one of the few dedicated family cycling websites (http://www.totcycle.com), and who has demo'd or reviewed MANY forms of electric assist on various bikes (eZee, BionX, stokemonkey, Panasonic crank drives, Ecospeed mid-drives, Kalkhoff, etc).

If I may add some actual data to this focacta thread, here is how I spent my Friday:
Took my bike to my PROFESSIONAL bicycle mechanic, who knows disc brakes inside and out, and has built a lot of wheels (he thought my wheelbuild was just fine, thank you very much for the concern trolling. looks like I will live to see another day).

We tried several rotors. Nothing smaller than 203mm will clear. Even with a 203mm Hayes rotor with I.S. mount adaptor, he needed to relace the wheel on the disc side with a slightly unusual pattern. Note that he does not think this pattern is generally necessary on front disc brake wheelsets.

Even with the wheel relaced for extra clearance, there is NO WAY that mechanical disc calipers will clear the spokes. We tried the OEM Promax calipers, Avid BB7, and the Hayes MX4. The distance from the rotor to the caliper mounting points should be a standard distance. The HT hub that I received has the rotor mount too far lateral. In fact, the rotor was rubbing the 203mm adaptor mount itself! My PROFESSIONAL mechanic does not think this is a unique issue with my fork or bike, but a problem with the hub. After all, my bike comes with a 160mm disc brake stock, and there were no clearance issues.

So ... we are having a machinist (a PROFESSIONAL machinist, mind you) take 1-2mm off the I.S. adaptor. I'll know on Monday if this works. Even if it does, there will be much finessing of the Hayes disc brake to avoid rubbing the rotor.

Why am I going through all this? I LOVE this motor for this bike. I plan on recommending it to my readers, IF this disc brake issue gets fixed. I'd been worried that 250W would be inadequate for a cargo bike, but for me it's just the right amount of assist. And by now I've got a lot of time and money invested in this wheelbuild. And I'm tenacious like that.

If I returned the hub, I'd be out the money for the rim, Hayes MX4 disc brake, rotor, and adaptor. Plus the professional wheel adjustment. And lots of shop time. Plus my time.

But I do feel as if the three folks I know of who haven't had success with the disc brake option are paying a heavy price for being early-adopters of this new HT disc brake beta product.

As for the anti-Pro Pack people. My wheel has now been built by a professional wheel-builder. I don't see how the prebuilt kit would be any better. In fact, it would likely be worse, as we used a high-quality rim for my build. From the one available grainy photo of the HT disc brake option (http://cleanrepublic.com/images/New-Bag ... et-Big.jpg), it does not seem that any fancy lacing was used. And if the wheel was meant to be dished off-center, you'd think the kit would have instructions to that effect, for the wheelbuilder. And mine didn't think the included spokes were intended for that, based on their supplied lengths. And this guy got the full kit, not the ProPack, and had the same problem (plus his wheel was out of true when it arrived): http://esykkelnorge.blogspot.com/2010/0 ... rting.html

So ... the call is still out there - is there anyone with a working HT disc brake option that can share details and pictures? Again, we're 0 for 3 on the forum so far. I thought Chuck had it working, but he's pre-purchase (and will likely stay that way, until this is sorted!).

Mike? How are you building up your wheelsets? Can you double-check the rotor mount placement, relative to standard caliper mounts?

[Jacob]

I received my hilltopper about 2 weeks ago and I really wanted to install it on my bike that has Hayes MX2 6 in disc brakes. While I waited to receive my kit, I read up on this thread that some ppl had a problem with their disc brake caliper not clearing the hub and spokes, so I enquired clean republic if the kit would fit on my particular bike model, and got a reply saying that it would, and that they did not have any reports of disc brake incompatibility.

When I got the kit, my first problem was that the axle of the hilltopper was to thick to fit into the drop outs on my SR Suntour XCP75 fork, I then thought about filing the drop outs to accommodate the thick axle, but just by "eyeballing" the hub and spokes I knew for certain it would not clear the Hayes MX 2 disc brake caliper. Luckily, I had another mountain bike that had direct pull cantilever brakes and the hilltopper kit was able to fit perfectly into this other bike's fork dropouts.

I'm now appreciating this product, and I would like to see Clean Republic and their Hilltopper succeed. I could be totally wrong, but reading through the forum, I'm assuming that Frank, Alex, and some others are in some way affiliated with Clean Republic and the Hilltopper, by the way they try to defend the company and product, probably from imagined lawsuits, but it does a disservice when they respond to comments from other Hilltopper owners with replies that come off as hostile and arrogant. The secret to business success is great customer service. We're not all experts here and we need to ask questions, not just so we can take care of our investment, but also so we can have feedback on improving an already outstanding product.

totcycle and jnreyno, I would feel insulted too, but I humbly ask that yall forgive these guys. Again, I could be totally wrong, but maybe they are associates of CR just trying to do damage control and don't realize the arrogance of their responses, but I would hate to see Clean Republic "fold" and the disappearance of this great product, which has some "bugs" that need to be worked out. Totcycle, maybe you could give a positive, yet honest review of the CR hilltopper, so they get more customers and hit "critical mass". For all I care, I'll need a new battery pack in 2 years and Clean Republic along with the Hilltopper still better be around. lol

[Mike]

Hi All,

Yeowza! Lively discussion on disc brakes. Our support staff told me this discussion was getting heated while I was off staring at QuickBooks and getting everybody health insurance (yes, we do that here) and not visiting the forum enough...

So I read through this thread, went and grabbed a disc brake bike at the local mega store, and posted the below pictures to aid communication.

In my experience, the key issues to getting correct rotor clearances are:

Adjusting space between planes A and B, and
Adjusting space between planes C and D.

Yes, damnit, but HOW?!

Try installing the plastic gasket (Item B) that comes with the disc brake motors between planes A and B. To adjust the distance between planes A and B you could add a thin layer of some material like putting small washers on the rotor bolts on the motor side of the gasket, or try making the gasket thinner somehow.

Try adding an extra washer (Item C), washer with a pie slice cut out of it, or some other flat material on the inside of the thick tab washer to increase the distance between planes C and D, or removing a washer or material to decrease this distance.

You'll probably want to adjust both distances to some degree. One general strategy might be to increase the distance between planes C and D as absolutely far as the window of your caliper/brake/pad settings will allow, then, if you're still having any kind of 'spoke hitting my caliper housing' problem, try increasing the distance between planes A and B until the spokes can clear the housing as they spin.

DiscHubFit-medium.jpg (68.66 KiB) Viewed 4253 times

Original disc hub with bolts and disc removed.

OldDiscHub-Medium.jpg (201.37 KiB) Viewed 4257 times

MotorDiagram.JPG (31.05 KiB) Viewed 4256 times

Here are the big versions of these pictures in all their browser-flooding glory:
Hub motor spacing on fork: http://cleanrepublic.com/images/DiscHubFit-Large.jpg
Original disc hub: http://cleanrepublic.com/images/OldDiscHub.jpg

Some notes on this particular situation:

-The bike pictured is a 26" NEXT-Mountain Ridge bike:
http://reviews.walmart.com/1336/1008839 ... eviews.htm
-The rotor measures 160mm across from outside edge to outside edge.
-I put an extra washer (Item C) inside of the thick 'tab washer' to widen the space between planes C and D.
-Note Items A are the same bolts that I took right off my original rotor hub.
-Note how Item B is helping to stand the wheel far enough off from the caliper housing that the outside-bending spokes turn past without hitting the housing.

Thank you all for helping create a great interactive community here with all your discussion. It's really great to see all the passion about this type of product. On that note, I'll respond to some of the key issues you guys have raised.

Real passion for the products. Are the customers "defending" Clean Republic and speaking passionately about supporting this type of product just Clean Republic team members posing as "ghost" customers for PR purposes? This was really awesome to read. It shows what a heated cord we've struck by working to offer such badly-wanted practical products like this in this niche. No, we've never even met "Alex" or "Frank" and these others. I'd guess they are being so vocal and supportive of the Clean Republic philosophy because they feel as strongly as we do that America's been coasting for too long in terms of alternative energy innovation, we're starting to get our asses kicked by other countries in that sector, and someone should start doing something about it. Anyway, that was a great side note to see.

Misleading customer service. We have "Money Back Guarantee" plastered all over the website for a reason. We don't want you to get stuck with a product that doesn't work for you just so we can make a buck. Our mission is a lot bigger than profit. We're trying to help people who want to change their behavior and consume less energy (generating "negawatts" of un-consumed energy). We had a lot of people asking us to launch a disc brake variation of our hub motors for a long time, and as of the time of this posting the launch is only a few months ago, so thanks for working with us during the 'early adopter' phase as we work out solutions to specific issues.

Which disc brake systems are compatible with the Hill Topper hub motors? That's a good question, and it's caused me to amend the forum name a bit. It's certainly true that there will be some disc brake spacing situations where the motor just wont fit, however, there are hundreds of millions of bikes sold around the world and they all have standardized points, and other unique points in their systems. We can't test all these permutations and generate a list of ones that work. We can, however, stand behind our products and service and work with any customer that needs assistance with their specific situation.

Infuriated Geek Posting. Everyone's posts in this thread remain purely unedited by any "moderators." Yes, let's keep it that way. I thought about editing some in the above rants about people without wheel building experience having the audacity to buy a ProPack and tinker around, but in the end I believe the underlying point most people are trying to make is about safety, which is always the right place to be coming from. Still, yes, the implied maturity level of some forum posters sometimes drops disturbingly low.

For some reason this seems to escalate the more technical the discussion gets. If you do have extensive technical experience, then realize most people have less than you, and don't be surprised or angered by that. Just share your understanding with the rest of the members. That's the whole reason Clean Republic has set up this forum in the first place. We recognize we will never be able to be experts in every last area, so we want to draw on the collective experience of our whole community because ultimately the whole project is about what kind of alternative energy product the community members (customers) want. We're not trying to reinvent the bike shop. If you have an extremely specific, detailed question about the bike industry we freely admit your local bike shop manager will probably have a better answer, especially if it's got to do with historical or non-ebike technical questions.

Most of the Clean Republic team members aren't "cyclists." We're alternative energy product developers. The specific production process of lacing and tuning our wheels is done by our bike tech employees who do indeed have many years of experience. We are also proud to work with the same leading U.S. bike parts suppliers that serve your local bike shop. So, we are experts in the key bike industry areas that concern safety and e-bike systems, but in other respects we're all just "regular mechanic dudes." I, for example, happily do all my local errands on a 3-speed white-wall beach cruiser with a coaster brake that has a Lithium Hill Topper installed. I am usually biking to Kinkos or the bank wearing Carharts as I don't own a single piece of Spandex. It wasn't even until two weeks ago that I had even heard anyone say it was a good idea to put chamois butter on your balls just to go on a bike ride. ( "That's just, like, your opinion, Man." -Lebowski ). So, please hold the line, and don't fall into the trap. If you find yourself in the middle of composing an Infuriated Geek Post, step away from the computer, go on a bike ride (butter and all if the wheel lacing pattern debates have really got you hot and bothered), proof read, edit for civility and hit "submit."

BLOpinion.jpg (100.1 KiB) Viewed 4256 times

Cheers,

-Mike

[totcycle]

Great post, Mike ... that's the stuff I was hoping for. Here's a product that should help relieve any sore feelings:
http://www.dz-nuts.com

As for the solutions, we'll give them a try tomorrow. We thought about trying to widen the fork and inserting a washer inside of the dropout (your item "C"), but the fork clearance is already tight, and we were worried about interfering with the anti-spin tab washer (a crucial piece here given lack of torque arm). Should it be a "washer with a pie slice cut out" or plain old washer?

I think given the number of folks that have struggled or been unsuccessful with the disc brake option, even with professional help, that it will help to include this info, and extra washers, with the disc brake kits. Even so, I think you ultimately need to go with a narrower hub. Since many are having caliper vs spoke clearance issues and/or rotor vs caliper issues (needing more space between A & B and B & C), and the only solutions seem to involve making the effective width of the hub at the fork dropouts even wider, there are likely to be plenty who just can't fit the modded HT disc hub into their dropouts.

I'm also rooting for you guys to make it long-term. I'm in Seattle as well, and appreciate you being local, and putting out a product that is considerably more affordable than other similar lithium/front hub options out there. And I'm all for crowd-sourcing support on a forum like this, but hope that the same cabal (or guy with many usernames) that also jumped on the poor guy asking you what 700c rim you spec (700c-rim-used-in-hilltopper-kit-t210.html) offers up a little less "tech support" to future customers.

[Jacob]

Right on Mike! In one fell swoop you not only trouble shot and came up with a workable solution for the problem, but it also built confidence in me that you're not just going to leave us hanging. Now that's a fine example of customer service. I just might give your solution a try on my bike that has the disc brakes, although I'm already content with the setup I have on the one that has cantilever brakes.

My only concern now, that maybe you can address, is how can I get the thick axle of the hilltopper to slip into the narrow dropouts on that fork? I've read about filing it wider as a solution, but any other non permanent suggestions would help. I really don't want to comprise the safety of my fork by filing off too much of the dropouts, and it makes me cringe just thinking about doing it. Would chamois butter work or what? hehe, seriously though I need help with this...

[Mike]

Hi Jacob,

Yes, there is an alternative to taking a bit of material off the edge of your dropout notch, which is to file down the motor axle (just a hair!), about 0.5mm at the spot where it slides into the dropout. If you do have the problem of the axle being too snug, I'd think taking material off the fork itself would be safer than off the axle, since the axle component has less total material than most forks at that point, but it's up to you.

Be careful only to file any part a very small amount, so the axle fits in the dropout very tightly with zero slop. It's very important that the axle be tight in the slot so all the torque forces transfer evenly up into the fork. For the same reason, make sure your axle bolts are tightened down extremely well on final installation.

Here's a copy of the "11-mm Question" comparison picture I put at the top of this thread, for reference and communication:

DiscBrakeSpokeHit-medium.jpg (94.61 KiB) Viewed 4191 times

Here's a link to the big version: http://cleanrepublic.com/images/DiscBrakeSpokeHit.jpg

Also, I happened to be speaking with a disc brake customer in Colorado today so I asked him to send in some pictures of his installation to share with you guys. Note the caliper fitting well inside the "11mm area":

LeanderBike.jpg (155.02 KiB) Viewed 4190 times

LeanderDisc.jpg (343.16 KiB) Viewed 4190 times

Here's the big version of the disc close-up: http://cleanrepublic.com/images/LeanderDisc.jpg
__________________

Or, if you lace your wheel this way, you get more space, giving you, say, a "15-mm Question."

In-In Hub Spokes.jpg (29.07 KiB) Viewed 4111 times

__________________

Ok, so what are we, 3 for 3 now in this thread? eh? eh?

...and no, no butter on the axle needed.

Tot,

LOL. Great link. I may get a DzNuts hat just to make people wonder...

Great suggestions about the extra washers. Yes, I'm going to recommend to the team that we order extra 'thin, large ID' axle washers and include a bag of five or six with the disc brake motor orders to give people extra spacing options. Also, yes, we are testing a new thinner motor right now that's actually about 20% smaller in most dimensions yet still puts out the same amount of oomph. It's really cool, but our manufacturer hasn't worked out the bugs in the mass-production processes themselves for that model yet, so it may be another year before we can get it fully online. However, like you say, it will help this and other general fork spacing issues.

Ahh, the Cabal. -sigh- We're so busy right now we don't have time to flush every over-the-line Geek Rant that crops up on the forum, though we hope to get into some good pruning in the future. On that note, if any of you do run across any posts that are grossly insulting or vulgar, please send a note directly to me at mike@cleanrepublic.com right away, as the heated discussion is generally ok, but nasty stuff needs to be taken down right away so newcomers don't have to deal with it.

Thanks!

[Jacob]

Haha, I'll go the fork route when filing down then, but I'm not in much of a rush to switch the kit over to the disc brake bike just yet. I'll have to buy the file and washers and then work on this quick project later. For now I'm in love with the setup I have. I'll update when I do decide to switch over. Thanks again for the support Mike.

[Mike]

Sure thing, you're very welcome. We'd all love to see a pic of your install when you do get it all wrapped up. Cheers!

[robert1389]

I own a 26" Montague Paratrooper folding mountain bike with front disk brakes, Will your conversion kit be compatible with my bike?

Appreciate your reply.

Thanks,
Robert1389

[WhiteTiger]

I doubt whether anyone can definitely say yes or no about your specific make and model of bike being compatible with the disc brake motor, unless some forum member has already done an installation on that exact bike.

If you read all of Mike's posts in this thread, you or your bike mechanic should be able to find the information to determine whether fit for your specific fork, disc, and caliper dimensions is a go or no go.


Tiger

[Jacob]

To update yall, the only adjustment I had to make on my 2005 Giant Yukon with disc brakes was to file the drop outs to accomodate the thickness of the hilltopper axle and the included washers that stops the axle from spinning. I put both of the "inner" washers that came with the hilltopper on the disc brake side, that gave me enough clearance for the spokes not to hit the caliper and found another thinner washer that I substituted on the right side. Then to make the disc rotor fit perfectly between the caliper pads I took away the rubber gasket that came with the hub and added 2 small washers on the inside of every bolt that held the disc rotor to the hub. It runs perfectly!